Wednesday, September 12, 2007

TSONGA HISTORY DISCOURSE

Welcome to the Tsonga History discussion blog, a simple platform for researching the history of the Tsonga people as part of efforts to rediscover the true history of Africa's people. We have to do this as a necessity to understand what the past was, in order to shape a future that is totally free of colonial distortions, a future whose tenure will mark the total freedom of Africa's people from the yoke of neo-colonialism.

Please feel free to contribute your thoughs, or whatever information that will help this blog achieve its mission.To kickstart the discussion on the history of the Tsonga people, we start with the publication of a document on the issue of Tsonga kingship, which is an abridged version of a submission to the Nhlapo Commission, opposing the claim by Eric Nxumalo that he be enthroned as a King of the Tsonga (and Shangaan people).

Given the complexity of the debate and the issues at hand, we think that this blog will allow us to have a responsible debate, with everyone exercising their rights to make their views known. We are of the view that there is no need for current generations to settle the unfinished business of yesteryear; rather our challenge is to engage in a collective journey to locate our distant past in order to build a shared, prosporous future.

Participants are encouraged to be responsible by exercising the necessary restraint, avoiding at all costs the use of offensive langauge. It is possible to grow from our current differences around the current efforts to resurrect the 18th century Gaza Kingdom.

118 comments:

beautifulsouthafrica said...

Mr. Mathebula,

I should say I find your views challenging Hosi Nxumalo quite interesting, and they are substantially deepening my understanding of history. I am a Zulu-speaking Mpisane from KZN. I know that the 4 generations preceding me were all Zulus, but I clearly understand they are descendants of Soshangane who himself came from the Ngunis. I understood early this year, he was from the Ndwandwes.

I am still continuing with my study of history in this area, particularly to find out more about my Mpisane ancestors, but also about the history of SA tribes in general.

Thank you for an interesting piece, particularly your arguments clarifying how Machangana differ from Tsongas, and what role our great grandfather (as it were) Soshangane played in the whole thing.

Thank you....

Vika Mpisane

Matimba said...

I never try and read such long theses and I must say that this is a
theory proven by a single group with the same interest of not allowing
Hosi Eric Nxumalo to be the king of the "shangan". This report clearly
indicate that of all the Tsonga(I'll use Tsonga and shangan
interchangeable to be politically correct) chiefs, only the mafemane
tribal autority needed to reclaim what should have been claimed my
shoshangana before mawewe negatively worked on it.

The research lack flow and the presentation of the subject is more
questionable than chalenging. According to my understanding, this
doesn't say anything about the nyiko yamafemani tribal authority.

A question that I would like to ask you gentle man is "With due respect,
do you guys think that Hosi Eric Mafemani" is in a right space of mind
or have the qualities of ruling all of the Tsonga/shangan clans in the
lower Limpopo and Mpumalanga region?"

Lets read the research and see if we can learn something.

Matimba said...

After going through this document, I realize the information contain in this document contradicts with the history the we knew and I decided to classify this type of documents under rubbish bin because they might mislead the public. While on the document, the following questions comes to my mind

What are they trying to say about us (Nxumalo's)?
Are we coming from the royal family or what ?
Is Eric going to become the future Hosi ya Matsonga or what ?
Are we trying to claim something that belong to someone else ?
If not us, Who should be the Hosi ya Matsonga ?
What about the stature of Ngungunyana e Giyani ?

Matimba Nxumalo

Matimba said...

Vamakwerhu

Mhaka ya vuhosi ha yi twa. Xana a ri mani hosi ya Vastonga lava tshama

swimitanini leswi nga hlayiwa laha tsalweni? Loko tihosi ta Vatsonga a

ti ri kona, hi yihi nyipi leyi ti nga yi lwa ti hlula? Hi ku angarhela

tihosi leti nga tsariwa laha tsalweni leri hi tona ti tivekaka, handleka

swona hibyeleni tihosi ta Vatsonga. Tihosi heti a ti vulavula xitsonga

naswona a ti hanya na vatsonga. Swingaleswi a ni voni hikwalaho ka yini

these people should not be called Vatsonga.

Loyi a nga sungula ku tiveka hi kuva hosi va vatsonga i Shoshangan

(Changana) hikokwalaho vatsonga va vitaniwa shangaans (Machangani). I

believe vatsonga va vitaniwa machangana hikwalaho ka hosi ya duna

Shoshangane. Muyisa loyi o lava recognition hikwalaho a vitana Vatsonga

lava a va rhangela Machangani not because va vulavula xichangana! Ni

yima hi ra hosi Nxumalo a nge hi Machangana/Vatsonga.

Xana hi kwihi ku hambana ka Xitsonga na Xichangana? Swilo leswi swa fana

mani! Lava vulavulaka ku hambana hi lava le ka Maputsu (Maputo), mara hi

xo xichangana/xitsonga xolo eta. Hi ku mali va ri i xuma, ku languta i

ku civuka. Mara loko u lo yingisela kahle swa fana swilo leswi hikuva hi

na wona Marito lawa yo ka ya nga tirhisiwi ngopfu. Swifana na xinghezi

lexiya xa va "thy" xa king James.

Gaza a ku ri yona capital cicy ya machangana (united states of xitsonga

speaking people). A ku ri na hosi yo dawuka mutsonga lahaya? Do! Tsonga

warriors originally came from tizula (Shoshangane/ Changana) because hi

vona a va tsama hi ku lwa le Natal a ze a tsutsuma a ta dzondza

xitsonga. Vatsonga a va ri hava murhangeli hence a va nga lwi. Don't you

know the saying, Vatsonga a va tsongoli xa munhu? Vatsonga va dume hi ku

rhula, ko biwa mati tingwenya ti etlela. Kasi miri Soshangane a swi

tivela kwihi le swo ba mati loko a ta ze a ba mati ka mabunu?

Loko mi lava vuhosi a hi rhangeni hi endla capital city of

machangana/vatsonga (if Giyani does not serve the purpose) then scrap

the saying vuhosi bya tswaleriwa and elect a King of Machangana/Vatsonga

by sparring all Machangana/Vatsonga surname representatives then crown

the winner as a King.

Matimba Ya Nxumalo

neil said...

i really find this blog not only intriguing, but also interesting and somehow revolutionary. i will neither hesitate nor hasten to jump into bed with it, but i will take it as a challenge to research and find more about my history and origin (as either Mutsonga or Muchangana or even both).

i therefore want to challenge other readers especially the young generation, not to be emotional when dealing with these, but to roll our sleeves and dig deep into our history to rediscover ourselves.

for long enough other people have classified and defined us the way it suit them for the simple reason that we don't know exactly who we are.

it is about time that we redefine ourselves correctly and i think this blog opens up a good opportunity for debate that will help us if we research correctly and objectively........

Khindlimuka u tlhela u kula Gazankulu......

Neil Shikwambana

chris said...

There's a book called "Matimu ya Vatsonga" by Junod, this is a must have book

Tinyiko ta ka Nkuna said...

I find the information very interesting we need to consolidate our history and make it available to the next generation. I do not subscribe to the notion that we should have a king. There is a lot of sense and follow in the research work. I respect the authors. I am impressed .I am not convinced that we need one. What are we trying to establish here. We never heard of this "one king" all along, it is only now people want to raise this issue. Our history has shown through different accounts that we have been living separate "set-ups".

This not a platform for people to raise and utter their unfinised Gazankulu "issues".

I thank you

Tinyiko

I thank you

chris said...

Well, i feel is time we step-up to the next gear...i will be happy if our History can be rewritten...how about we start an Organisation that will deal with this issue...

Bryce said...

This is a very interesting and informative blog. Thank you for your continued posts!

When I first came across your blog, I thought you might enjoy this Tsonga website that tracks modern usage of the language:

Xitsonga wiki browser

Thulani said...

I was disappointed when I receive this documentation from a non Tsonga Shangaan person. However I did find the extracts themselves to be informative and ot me to wonder as to what happened to my book titled “Matimu ya Vatsonga” that I read when I was still at primary school.. The dedications of persons like the late Ntsanwisi will be missed.
In all, thanks To the authors or those persons that brought about this topic.

Mchavi said...

Thanks Khalanga (Mathebula/ Baloyi to the uninitiated) for this interesting piece history.

While the Gaza empire never subdued all the Tsonga speaking political groupings of its time, I have a feeling you are making it appear weaker than it actually was (I concede I need to research on this)

PS: Can anyone tell me about the origins of my clan, the Chavalalas/ VaXingwidzi/ MaShengu: are we Swazis who later became Zulus and Shangaans or, Zulus who became Swazis and Shangaans, or Shangaans who became Swazis and Zulus?

enough wa ka Mbhovo, Matsimbi said...

Greet u in the name of the great powerful king Mutsonga.

Please provide us with also history of king mutsonga, as history prove this King Shaka Zulu, 4 zulu,

ruralbwoy said...

Vatsonga never had one single powerfull chief.The word Tsonga, according to the history books ringava ri huma eka rito "Dzonga" vaDzonga, people from the south, South of Mozamzique.

Loko u lava kuri hi burisana kahle hi mhaka leyi natin'wana join the forum in the link below:http://limpopo.lefora.com

ruralbwoy said...

Vatsonga never had one single powerfull chief.The word Tsonga, according to the history books ringava ri huma eka rito "Dzonga" vaDzonga, people from the south, South of Mozamzique.

Loko u lava kuri hi burisana kahle hi mhaka leyi natin'wana join the forum in the link below:http://limpopo.lefora.com

enough wa ka Mbhovo, Matsimbi said...

I little bit differ with u rural boy....the tribes had named after their powerful king......de reason we r not familiar abt dis in Tsonga king, is bcs shoxangana and his son try to destry everything abt us....we r de son of King Tsonga

enough wa ka Mbhovo, Matsimbi said...

I little bit differ with u rural boy....the tribes had named after their powerful king......de reason we r not familiar abt dis in Tsonga king, is bcs shoxangana and his son try to destry everything abt us....we r de son of King Tsonga

Mchavi said...

1. The MaChangana/ VaTsonga share a common language and culture and not necessarily a common political history. In other words:
2. The Vatsonga/ Machangana were never under a single political entity. Therefore Enough waka Mbhovo is clearly wrong on that score.
3. Even in present day Southern Africa, the MaChangana/ VaTsonga pay allegience to three separate political entities, namely, the Republic of South Africa, The Republic of Zimbabwe and the People's Republic of Mozambique.
4. The present day type of ethnic identity is a creation of colonial and missionary authorities. The present form of Machangana/ Vatsonga ethnic identity is a creation of the Afrikaners and the Swiss.
5.In conclusion, one has to reiterate that while the MaChangana/ VaTsonga are the same people by language, culture and blood they have never been under one Hosi or King, but have always belonged to various chiefdoms (Tihosi na Swihosana) that are now spread across three countries as a result of colonialism.

enough wa ka Mbhovo, Matsimbi said...

@Michavi do iu know dt Zulu r from one KIng Shaka..dis man is de one who create today's nations called Zulu....do u knw dt Shangana r frm King Shoxangana......Mchavi all nations in de world created by one king, den they split to thousands of chiefs......do u know dt Bolobedu ppl ar frm the father of Queen Modjaddji......hey Mchavi, u call urself Mchavi bcs of someone started with dt surname....dt is why today u will find someone say ndzi wa ka N'wamitwa" meaning i'm from N'wamitwa chief.......God bless Matsonga Machangana as cousins for ever not brothers

enough wa ka Mbhovo, Matsimbi said...

one more mchavi, i know ur familiar with bible,do u know Isreal named after Jacob" now ur name will be no longer Jacob but Israel."

even today this nations are called Idom...frm Bible

U my son Juda, u will be nations too" de nations of Judas still there in isreal..


We all belong to the certain names..hope now u get it Mchavi...

enough wa ka Mbhovo, Matsimbi said...

@Mchavi do u know dis early prayer of Matsonga ppl" mi vikela na yena Mutsonga.......

ruralbwoy said...

He Mchavi...
Xana u yikuma kwihi mhaka ya ku aku ri na hosi muTsonga? This is the first time to hear about this king Tsonga.
If i may ask you,how much do you know about your history?
Well i will suggest you get yourself a book called "Life of a South African Tribe" or Matimu ya vatsonga.

ntwanano said...

what about common surnames, lyk sithole,ngobeni,hlungwani,khosa amongst zulus and tsongas,the chabalalas are mshengus in both tsonga en zulu.if tsongas en shangaans are regarded as one group, why do we have different cultures..shangaans dont wear shibelani en tsongas dont dance xincayincayi...

ntwanano said...

what about common surnames, lyk sithole,ngobeni,hlungwani,khosa amongst zulus and tsongas,the chabalalas are mshengus in both tsonga en zulu.if tsongas en shangaans are regarded as one group, why do we have different cultures..shangaans dont wear shibelani en tsongas dont dance xincayincayi...

ruralbwoy said...

ha ha ha, The Sitholes are Ndau's oldest Shona from Zimbabwe and Northern Mozambique.

Hlungwani's are related to the Sono's, they are pure Tsonga.

Chabalala (Mshengu, Miyen) are Nguni's. You find both this surnames in Tsongas, Swazi's and Zulus yes...it is so because the wars during Shaka's time.

Ntsan'wakulala said...

Interesting peace of reading, I agree that as African's and specific the Tsonga people have to try and understand our history. As it stand now the history of Tsonga people is mainly based on events after the birth of Shaka Zulu. I find this to be bias and to an extent claiming that one tribe is superior to any other tribes that co exist in this country called South Africa.

History according to what my grandfather Hezekias Miyen [may his soul rest in peace] told me is : We are all from Up Africa and had to migrate due to the search of a better place to live in and war between the different tribes of Africa. Matsonga, Mavenda, Manghuni, Masotho and many other tribes already existed. Things could have took a turn when the Nghuni's reached the ocean and realising there was no where else to go, they decided to fight for survival and the Khoi-san decided to move on the edge of Africa to the west since they were the first tribe to reach the shore.

Since the Nghuni's were prepared to fight and the other tribes were just roaming the country, most of the tribes were taken by surprise hence they were easily disarmed and became slaves to the Nghuni tribe. Hence the word Shangane it is used as a derogatory word to any foreign amongst the Nghuni majority are popularly known as Zulu's

Shangane - when showing disrespect without fear of anything, the Zulu's even say "amashiya nghane" meaning, those who ran and left their kids behind.

Most definitely this is not all of our history we are not Shangaan's but Matsonga, I agree those who ran from the rule of King Shaka can accept the word Shangane but before they were that they were something else and that is what this research should be about and not necessarily about who is the king ya maTsonga

ruralbwoy said...

Tsan'wakulala!
Our Tsonga history is well documented my brother, there are loads of books written by the Sailors, Arabs etc...Which explain our lives way before the Shaka Zulu’s era?
Ethiopia oriental By João dos Santos, Luciano Cordeiro, Life of a South African Tribe etc.
era.

Mbezula said...

I think most of the peeps on this page are just generalising just becoz you are born and growng up speaking Tsonga may not necessarily constfitute you to be only Tsonga. I tend to think (through unrelenting reserch-); that we r both Shangana and Tsonga. But WHY you may ask? when the Ngunis/Zulus left naboSoshangane eKZN iN 1818; THEY LEFT DURING THE TIMES THE WERE SENT FOR WAR and when arrived in Mozambique they primarily found the Peaceful Tsonga Tribe along with The Ndawus,..(Rhonga/Thonga (Subgroups of TSONGA Tribe!!) etc and the warriors amaButho did nt leave with their wmen so they had to marry among these nations..especially the Tsonga tribe..Tinduna to fana naboSoshangane, Nxaba, Zwangendaba had their different regiments of warriors who then flooded the AREAS covering most of Moz.Nkulunkumba Nyiko Nxumalo you are making so much more sense tome than most folks here..Ya of coz, the only Kings were are descending from that i knw for Shangane(hayi Changani-that is when you Tsongalise it)/Tsonga are Soshangane,Mzila (Mawewe tried bt failed decimally and heade 4 Mpumalanga..bt they are still our blood brothers..;and Nghunghunyane, the others may not be that popular to me bt they are important.The language Shishangane sprang from Nghonyama yamunhu yenaSoshangane, as for Tsonga is the mothertongue we acquired from our Tsonga mothers in that country, hence Tsonga/Shangaan,..meaning the mixture of isiZulu and ShiTsonga..these two feed offeach other..we are One!hence we evn live together as Shanga/Tsonga. and as for the King of Tsonga I do not know of that thing and would like to ask from those who knw kubanigabelanyana tona ntwehiyoosha nyama naminabu..!Check the meaning of surnames such as Mkhabele,Maluleke,Makhubela, Sithole,Ngobeni etc..u can clearly notice the resemblance of Nguni origin..the only difference nakonaahidiffernce ikushincha ka 'a' yiyaka 'e' and as for Ngobeni they mayhavebeen a slight shift from Ngubeni or connection with boNgobese okumbe Ngubane..Remember that many things had to be changed to give this newly-formed tribe a new and unique id. evn surnames were adjusted hence we resemble. most of us the Zulu names and Surnames and why not other nations such as Venda, sotho, or evn Tswana..?Jus becoz the Ngunis are our blood ancestors..as for this man ruralbwoy..mfanakithi dont just waffle and generalise that if ygou went to Zim and found a Sithole there then everySithole is Shona..remember that The Ndebeles are our brothers who left Zululand with Mzilikazi for Zim..ang yuo can imagine that they inter-married with Shonas..that is how you get BoSithole le eZim..and what does Mkhabele/a,Makhubela or Ngobeni mean in our language??no-one will give u a meaning .y? dats bcoz we these meanings are in Zulu meaning ukuKhaba,Ukuthola or ithole, Ngobe (a rhino or sum anymal) of which you dont find in Tsonga..thanks..as for Nyiko Nxumalo, ka Zwide, ka Ndwandwe, ka Langa, Ka Manukosi we should hook up,!! I like yo ideology..

beautifulsouthafrica said...

When i first posted a comment in 2007 in this blog I was grateful for a thought-provoking research & statements made in the Tsonga history. Not that I was accepting all the points made, but I found them, and I still find them, as good ideas to bear in mind in trying to understand South Africa's tribal history, and particularly that of the Mpisanes.

I visited Bushbuckridge in December 2008, and was (to my surprise) welcomed by the locals with such honor. They said being a Mpisane, there was a whole area (interestingly named "area" or "eriya") which belonged to Mpisane. They said as a descendant of Mpisane, I should return to reclaim that area:-).

Now what I would like to know is: from whence cometh "Mpisane"? From Soshangane (and therefore, Nxumalo) or from Nkuna (because my father tells me we're descendants of Nkuna). Now can anybody tell me what they know about the Mpisane origins?

ruralbwoy said...

Mpisana was Sochangana's son. Other Sochangana's sons were:
Mudamise
Dumanenhla
Muzila
Mawewe
Konto
Mabingwani
Musayeya
etc.

Vana Va Mpisana hilava:
Mphiti
Mathiyendlanzi
Mzangwede
Mayo
Nzonzobaya
Magona
Muyunguza
Masaya
Nqokisa
Ngphezu
Caka cana

Hope you are answerd

kenny said...

vandawu na vacopi a hi vatsonga, hi lo va related swintsanana marha tindzimu ti hambne swinene, vandzawu va huma a zimbabwe close na bodara ya muzambiki,the reason hi hlangane na vona i ku a ku ngari na bodara between mozambiki na zimbabwe

Makhandeni said...

Just have to say I find this post an amusing read as (to me) it sounds well researched and it is presented in debate form. History as we've come to find is subjective. This is the best perspective I've encountered in my research to know who I am and where I hail from, in an attempt to forge a new informed future.

Allow me to take this opportunity to say most of our history is lost because we seek it when it has passed. History is a continuum, everyday it's happening.

Myself and others have formed a group on Facebook named Malamulele Writers Club, please join us if you wish to write with us, our main goal being to capture history as it unfolds. Our most recent, ongoing project is the Malamulele/Thulamela Municipality debate. We could use great writers and researchers like the four who penned this down. Find us here: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=370470651185&ref=ts and here http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/group.php?gid=94978530809&ref=search&sid=1648265458.2377806544..1

Mbezula said...

Mmmh, suspicious heh!Furthermore, many Shangaan surnames, you must bear in mind, have been altered for whatever reasons, take for an example, Shibambo kumbe Shivambu, has been changed or derived from Sibambo/Mbambo actually that is the original other than Shibambu. A surname like like Honwana(I have brothers/cousins who are Honwana, which is actually Nkomomde, the Honwana surname was used as Nkomondo symbolises or means a cow with a horns or horn.Moreover, Ntshani is actually Mzankomo-whether they have call it Ntshani/ne eNatal am not sure- but it originated there probably from the same area the Manganyis, Maswanganyes, Khosas/zas, Ngobenis, Mabundas are coming form. You must also bear in mind that some people migrated way far back be4 Soshangane's migration, and surely even later on. How, or Why you may ask, you see by the surnames. Most of this history has sadly been lost long time ago and it is goin to be a mammoth task of some sort to trace it 100% of its true and genuine content and reference. We therefore also have to shun away from having other people, not want us to re-unite and have GAZANKULU again especially if we SUPPORT THEM by being divided as proven in SOME PARTS OF THE RESEARCH. I personaly do not see anything wrong with having representanives when it comes to Kingship,Chiefdom or kumbe Bunduna. Before we were ONE, now we have become NONE to the content of our enemies. Just imagine the envy we would have people having concerning our GAZANKULU RE-UNION. PLS, PLS, PLS BAMAKWERHU, AHIZAMENI FUTHI BAKAHINA. It is therefore evident that Tsonga or King yaVaTsonga has never been knwn in history, and we should wonder why because in olden days people needed a powerful king to lead and protect them against wars, so where was he? DO! Akuna cilo lahaya, kahle ku vele kubonakala ku these poeple may have origianlly come from the Nguni guiding leadership. Moreover, kamhaka yoleyo yamadlozi kumbe swikwembu; there is no such a thing traditionally, culturally as A FRIENDS SPIRIT OR NEIGHBOUR WHO WAS FRIENDS TO YOUR ANCESTORS, CAN POSSESS A PERSON, if you have a Tsonga/Shangaan person possesed by a Nguni spirit it is DEFINITELY his flesh and Blood otherwise they would not be concerned with him!Why am i saying this?? TSONGA/SHANGAAN PEOPLE HAVE NEIGHBOURS AND FRIENDS WHO ARE NOT TSONGA OR SHANGAAN, such as Vendas,Pedis, Tswanas, Sothos etc but I have never come across an idlozi from these language-groups speaking through Shangaan/Tsonga, Why dont they POSSESS YOU MAY ASK? Its because it is not their blood offspring. If the reason mentioned by The above researchers is true about what they wrote concerning spirit possessions; then WE SHOULD ALSO HAVE OUR NON-TSONG/SHANGAAN FRIENDS/NEIGHBOURS POSSESSING US JUST BECAUSE WE LIVE AMONGST THEM. IT IS FURTHER PROVEN TO BE A WEAK RESEARCH REGARDING SPIRIT POSSESSIONS. I think ifever one comes across a Hlengwe, Rhonga,Ndau spirit in person with Nguni surname that may be his RELATIVES AS THERE WERE SURELY INTER-MARRIAGES BETWEEN GROUPS, NOT NECESSARILY THAT THEY ARE FRIENDS TO THE PERSON'S ANCESTORS.!!

Infomer said...

visit http://www.gazakingdom.com to get more info aswell as saving Urself 4rm this vernom of mandla mathebula who was promised land by the people he represented at the nhlapho commission n lost.

KITTS said...

Dear Mandla,
A lot has ben said already in this blog.
My take is that the Nxumalo's are taking a chance.
Were this an issue on the Mozambican side of Tsonga territory,maybe more depth of information about us would be available to be able to make a determination.

Qbzee said...

Interesting Read, when will we get anything new or where can u suggest that i read to get any more history on the Tsonga people.

ruralbwoy said...

Easy...if you are based in JHB, u nge milenge mimbirhi u ya a Bramfontein a Sasavona Book Shop u ya xava buku kumbe tibuku timbirhi leti: Matimu ya Vatsonga na Swivongo swa Vatsonga/Machangana...

If you have a bit of cash you can also get the mother of all Tsonga History books called "Life of the South African tribe"

jonga said...

i dont understand why you so - called tsonga people you dont have king , each every tribe in the world have their kings,i read your history that you dont have king but question still stand do you have kind or not

ruralbwoy said...

Hey Jong, ta for the interest in our blog.
Historicaly yes, we do not have a
King who ruled all the Tsonga people.

But we do have Kings though; but the kings normally rule a village and other villages in the surroundings, but not the whole of the Tsonga nation.

Mbezula said...

i read Junod

Mbezula said...

i have read Junod over and over again, the book called "Life of a South African tribe" i find most of the stuff he wrote there is irrelevant, especially on the surname part. how can Junod being a white person, probably a Portuguese happen to know so much about the Shangaa-Tsonga history. one thing: he does not even seem to understand the meaning of Bantu words. he goes as far as saying that Tshabalalas, Malulekes, Mabundas, Nkunas, Sitholes etc originate from other tribes other than Ndwandwe/Nguni origin. i think what is missing here is very very much easier..most of us came from Nguni origins( check surnames they correspond with Nguni)-and then later got incorporated into Tsonga language, due to migrations. i would also want this gentleman Ruralbwoy to explain why most of these surnames are also found in the Nguni, and also try to tell us the meanings of those surnames such Tshabalala, Ngobeni, Maluleka, Ntshane, Khoza, Dlamini etc..also knowing some Ndwandwe-Zulu war will definitely open peoples eyes. We are mostly Nguni originally by surnames, but later incorporated into Tsonga and other languages. Google these things also.

Mbezula said...

to answer KITTS first am going to say yes go ahead and read about the Tsonga history then after you finish you try and get the balance between Tsonga and Shangaan..by also concetrating on the two's history. i dont think a good researcher should only focus on one aspect of the matter and ignore the other. this is easy in order to understand the Shangaan part: Shangaan was formed when the Ndwandwe/Nguni from Natal merged with the Thonga tribes as the result of the civil war between Zulu and Ndwandwe and the migration from thereon. then the Tsonga language became dominant as children naturally had to speak their mothers' language, of which is Tsonga.. i therefore suggest for people to read both histories and not only Tsonga. anyone will concurr with me when i say that the following surnames could be the ones which are pure Tsonga/Thonga: Marivate, Shithlelane, Shirilele, Rivele, Mahatlane and some others..why is it so you may ask? because these surnames have their meanings in Xitsonga but no-one can explain Mkhabele to be in Tsonga because it is Nguni, same as Mabasa, Mathebula, Sithole, Khoza/Khosa,Ngobeni..my other question is for these authors MR Mandla Mathebula, Mabasa and Nkuna..why you base your roots only on XiTsonga only while your surnames are that of NGUNI?? There is a huge misunderstanding and even older people have forgotten to explain these things. you just to also some Zulu or Nguni language to understand the meanings of some surnames otherwise it remains a guessing game for you guys. anyone who wants to inquire more info. contact me on: t.hustle74@yahoo.com

ruralbwoy said...
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ruralbwoy said...
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ruralbwoy said...

Mbezula, Junod was from Switzerland, he drank and ate xiTsonga mfo and i was lucky to have been taught by one of his great grandsons at Leman High school (Elim).

This is a fact, some of the Tsonga surnames originated from other tribes; it is so because of the tribal wars at Zululand, most of the men who were with nyankwave Soshangana when he hijacked the Tsonga,Copi,Ronga,Tswa people...in Mozambique keepted their surnames.

I am so disappointed if you say most of us come from Nguni, (unfortunaley i don’t know your surname) the surnames that are of a Nguni origin among the Tsonga people are not really much.

I am a Maluleke (ku longoloka kumbe ku famba) and i know my clan history like the back of my hand, we are NOT and we will never be Nguni, but Tsonga (vaCopi).
Khoza (Khosa) is the largest Tsonga group they are not Nguni.
Chabalala
Mavunda ( va vundzeli va ti hongonyi) is pure Tsonga.
If you want to dive deep into who are the pure Tsonga or Nguni don’t ask Google, google is full of unfound facts. Mena i have been to Mozambique twice and Zimbabwe (Chiredzi, the capital of Tsonga people in Zim) because of this subject. The other thing that i have found about your comments is that you are stressing that most of the Tsonga people are from Nguni’s which is totally wrong.

Your focusing is a drop in the ocean, Tsonga surnames are also found in Shona, Kalanga, Tswa, Copi, Tswa, Swazi, Ndawu, Ronga etc.

From today try to cast your net deeper into this subject and you will have a different view on how you see things. What i suggest is that you must first understand the history of the people in the Southern Africa region, The Venda, Shona, Kalanga, Zulu, Soto etc before you can dwell on the surnames.

This will pave a way for you to understand why the Maluleke are mostly found in and around the Mhinga area and the Nkuna’s at Vukhaha, the Nxumayo’s at Thulilamahaxi....and why Junod wrote the books, and why the Swiss mission church started at Valdezia – Elim....etc
Why we are not passed by our oun Tsonga spirits but Zulu and Ndawu...

Mbezula said...

thanx for that info. like i always say you have not tried to explain the similarities..if one says he is Mtileni, then you find things like Mthunzi, Shirilele and other stuff, we should be able to explain the Nguni part of Mthunzi. mina am a Ngobeni, which also has Ngobe Zitha. and what i have found out about people moving around especially in migrations caused by wars is that, they tend to be incorporated into new clans, such as what happened with Zwangendaba, Nxaba's Ngoni ( i bet you know that they changed from Nguni)..and are found all over Tanzania, Zambia, Zim, Malawi of which now they speak the local dialects or languages of those areas, but use Ngoni in special ceremonies. next thing, what happened is the same as some of us, the Mabundas arrived in the Bahlabe kumbe vahlave clan hence they were called so, but they had come from Ngome area in the KZN, same with Manganyis..i think you are being misled by the Tsonga praise surnames in most Tsonga-Shangaan surnames that is because people were later integrated into the Tsonga clan or tribe. that is your confusion. are you aware that what you just called Chavalala is actually AMaShengu and are Nguni..you also said that yourself above addressing a certain Chabalala. Mr Maluleke yes you did go to all those areas to search for your roots but you must bear in mind that these people would define their surnames according to the kind of people they integrated with. am not even surprised of that. you can write a long thesis on that i will still stand my ground. The Tshabalalas, Chavalalas, Chabalalas, are the same there is no difference there, the only difference is that it is written in Tsonga but originally Nguni. you hear them saying they are vashingwizi, that is the clan they got integrated into in a new country. the Boers are the same analogy, they are a bit different from the old Dutch because now they no longer speak the exact same language van Riebeeck was initially von Riebeeck in Dutch..!use common sense. one more other thing> DONT TELL GOOGLE COULD BE UNFOUNDED ON SOME INFO..I KNOW THAT! THE thing is i have reliable sources that are genuine and sconded by well-researched books. if you think my sources are lying then i will say even that Swiss guy is a lier, i dont expect a white person to know our history better than we do. Also you are undermining and insulting my elders who help in some of my reseach. you are not a Ngobeni so i do no need you to decide for me..! yes some of the groups may not have come fron Soshangane's group but also with zwangendaba, and Nxaba and others as they got defeated by Soshangane and headed northward. still you are grossly misled by some writers who lack vision. it is so easy to praise you surnames in Tsonga cause that is your language.also explain why the Khozas/Khosas have their izithakazelo done in Nguni, also Mabunda,Sibiya, Rikhotso i have come to find it is Ubisi. tell us why? and as for your surname anyone can define differently..from the word kululeka- ku rhulisa munhu kumbe olovisa that is the meaning i know myself, if it was in Tsonga perhaps it is maolovisa kumbe marhulisa, kumbe mawisisa! now define Ngobeni in TSONGA in see if you can come out of with something. AND PLS DONT TELL ME ABOUT MLAMBYA, I ALREADY KNOW THAT AND THAT IS BECAUSE OF THE CLAN WE WERE INTEGRATED INTO, JUST LIKE THE Mabundas, Bhahlabe. bona Junod even says Mhlengwe means "beautifull one" is that Tsonga or Nguni? i think the debate here could be that thses surnames were already in what we call Natal even before the wars, but were in various clans of different surnames but such as Mbayi (Swazi), hence the Nguni resembence!!

Mbezula said...

Okay ruralbwoy, what language is that defining Maluleke, meaning "kufamba kumbe kulongoloka"??

Mbezula said...

Maluleke, if now a shona person using a shona surname comes and lives amongst the Matsonga people, and he is defined in Tsonga terms is he originally tsonga or Shona in blood. this is because you can still find all these surnames in Swazi, Chopi, Ndawu etc as Tsonga surnames like you said, that could be because people got consumed into new tribes and clans.!! i dont know why you fail to see that, its too easy for me to see and understand!! anyone with better views plse lets comment even if you may not be Tsonga or Shangaan!! we need both sides here not only Tsonga one. we need to be encompassed into all of this!!

Mbezula said...

to answer ruralbwoy in his waffling generalisation; referring to Ntwananos questions about the surnames, this is what i am finding: i interviewed the Shona/Ndawu people about Sithole being originally Ndawu..and this is what they say "No it is not, never, this surname is Ndebele"( and we know Ndebeles came from the Nguni-AmaKhumalos) what happened here it is obvious: they intermarried with Shonas and others such as Ndawus. piece of cake!! hope you are answered my man NTWANANO..guys dont just read things and conclude the final answer, like some are doing on this blog, you will get lost!*a constantly questioning mind becomes successful at the END*_BY Mbezula waGaza!!

ruralbwoy said...
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ruralbwoy said...

Easy Mbhezula, easy… let’s have a fare and clean debate here….

...like i said, we can debate this issue till the moon is full...You are not the first person to come gun blazing about this issue and I am not forcing anyone to believe what I am waffling…we are old enough to take sound decisions.

I don’t want to be seen as someone who is holding a gun to some body’s head and forcing him to gobble my Mopani warms vomit.

Yes, the Tsonga people share surnames with Nguni tribes but they are not a majority within the Tsonga tribes.

Makhandeni said...

I think the debate here is about the way forward. We've established the Tsonga and Nguni (Zulu) roots but now we're trying to decide who we wanna be. Do we want to be Tsonga or Shangaan or both? Some are leaning so much on their Zulu roots they forget a new nation has been formed. Soshangana ruled over SOME Tsonga people by force. Do we really want to perpetrate that in this day and age. What he did was another form of mfecane. I'd say we agree to be Tsonga, where we went and not where we escaped from. Soshangana's people have already denounced their Nguni-ness by virtue of abandoning Shaka and his people. Of course it is so engraved in our culture we can't rid of it. My plea is that we do not try to rule over the peaciful Tsonga people and continue that tradition of having clan chiefs by surname and having a democratic way of making decisions that involve the whole Tsonga Kingdom. I find it disturbing that the Ngunis came and found the Tsonga people and now they want to address us a Machangana/Vatsonga and not Vatsonga/Machangana, as we came to be known. The million rand question is whether the Tsonga have a King of their own and if so that person should be reinstated. If not, let's not run the risk of installing someone and then removing them when new information surfices. That will not end well. Winning a war should not be used as the basis on which our kingdom is brought back on its feet. Already we will have a lot of discomfort. A mutual understanding is what we need. In the history that I've come to read Vutsonga is a place in Mozambique where the Valoyi's settled in 1822, while some dispersed to Zimbabwe. I do not see this fact or fallacy being debated.

ruralbwoy said...

Makhandeni!
The battle of retaining our Tsonganes is now on and we know who is claiming to rule over the Tsonga people (The Nxumalos at Bushbuckridge).

There are some institutions that we will be approaching to make noise about this Tsonga/Shangaan issue.eg.

• The language board
• SABC - Munghana Lonene FM (Currently the station is in a language mess and people like DJ Mchangana are making things worse, he needs to go back to class and learn xiTsonga in Higher Grade)
• Chiefs – There is a big support by our clan chiefs to retain our Tsonganes and I bet they will support this project.

We need to influence people to address as correctly not as
Shangaan/Tsonga but Tsonga/shangan if possible just Tsonga.

How long are we gonna allow the Nxumalos to bully us, is about time we hit back. If it was my wish that Nghunghunyani statue at Giyani was gonna be moved to Mandlhakazi in Mozambique or at the Nxumalo’s tribal office in Bushbuckridge.

Thulani said...

It might be difficult to locate the persons (or families) that were kings then. Even finding out where one come from (i.e from Nguni or Tsonga).

Makhandeni said...

I totally agree Ruralbwoy! My wish is not to aleniate Shangaan people because I think the Tsonga and Shangaan need each other. News just in is that Sunday Times has launched a Zulu edition. This made me reflect on where we're going as a country, and then as a continent. Zulu is taking over! Let's retain our Zuluness because every kingdom needs warriors. Nghunghunyani lost to Albasini while Soshangane lost to Shaka. Lessons learned, I hope. It was said that Vatsonga are a peace-loving people, great! But for a nation to thrive, a certain degree of force needs to be exerted. That is why we have the Nxumalos of Gaza decent. My wish is to bring back the Gaza Kingdom, maybe rename it to Tswa-Ronga Kingdom to incorporate the Thonga, Tonga, Tsonga, Tswha, Rhonga, Shangaan, etc. We need to go big guys. Languages and peoples are becoming extinct. In the same breath, I think we might have been robbed of our own country while demarcating Zimbabwe, Mozambique and South Africa. Isn't it strange that Tsonga people dominate the regions on the borders of these countries? The Limpopo Transfrontier Park is Tsonga Territory if my calculations are correct. I remember when I was young we had lots of fauna that were moved to the Kruger National Park and people must have been moved out of the Park. But I'm figuring that there are other agendas way above us: World animal conservation. Although the Khoisan are said to have inhabited the area for a short while, we could still have a case coz that's where we eventually settled. South Africa has too much on its plate I know for sure it can't deliver for the Tsonga people. We have other bigger needs than a TV show. Thus I'm tempted to say we need our own country carved out of those borders but it does not need to go that far.

Makhandeni said...
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Makhandeni said...

On involving other institutions like the SABC and chiefs, I'd like to draw your attention to the Malamulele Municipality issue. The people over there could use all the assistance they can get because that to me is the first step in displacing a people. If hosi Nxumalo cares, he must intervene - not for his own gain but for the gain of vanhu va ka Malamulele. MLFM aired the story and people's views when this issue was hot in 2001 but very few chiefs were vocal. Which brings me to the question: WHY? The discussions haven't stopped and we're saying it's not too late to come on board. There's a "Malamulele Municipality Poetry and Short Stories Competition" where people are encouraged to tell their heartfelt stories on what they are currently experiencing as a result of government negligence. To my surprise as one of the editors, people are not talking! The only story I received was mine! You can find it on Facebook, page called 851. I don't believe we're even doing this, inviting "owners of the land" to the party. CHIEFS MUST GET INVOLVED, we can no longer wait in silence!

Makhandeni said...

@Thulani, kambe a hi ringeteni. A hi lweli hina hikuva mihandzu leyi hi nge yi dyi, kambe vana verhu va ta tinyungibyisa hi laha va pfaka kona. Hi nga tshiki ku hlota vutitivi.

ruralbwoy said...

Makhandeni!
I am inviting you in our online forum...
http://limpopo.lefora.com/

Makhandeni said...

@ruralbwoy, I joined as mkbaloyi. Thanks for extending the invite!

Makhandeni said...

This for those who think once they say they are Zulu va hetile. Zulus also have origins, they've not always been Zulus. Va ka Ndwandwe, which is the point I'm trying to drive home, were never Zulu. In fact, after killing Dingiswayo, they fought Shaka on two occasions. Had they won, Ndwandwe would still be Ndwandwe, or much more ambitiously, the Zulus as we've come to know them, would be called the Ndwandwes. http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/bios/dingiswayo.htm. I hope the Zulu origins argument is omitted from further debates.

Mbezula said...

i have a heap of well-researched historical books hence i can back it up. THANKS for your insight wena Makhandeni. You are so right it is not necessarilly about Zulu. The latter were only under a number of 2000 or 3000 in membership during the rule of Senzangakhona of the Zulus and Dingiswayo's, of the AmaMthethwa. in the north were the dominant and most in number, the NDWANDWE led by the powerful Zwide Nxumalo, Soshangane's blood relative or brother or something but they were bood related, hence the latter was an Induna. the NDWANDWES WERE so numerous in number and had subjugated all the other clans around including the Zulus, Swazi etc..but Shaka managed to defeat the NDWANDWES after a long and fierce battle of which he obtained victory through other tribes or clans' assistance such as the AmaKhumalos of Matshobane, Mzilakazi's father. After the defeat _MOST_ of the NDWANDWE sections moved away to different future-determined destinations such as Mozambique, Swaziland, Limpopo. In mozambique internal squabbles between the Ndwandwes broke out, resulting from shortage of grazing land. Whereby Nxaba, Zwangendaba, Maseko, and etc broke away from the now-called Shangaan people and re-established themselves as waNgoni. of which all the AMaShanganis had been called. it is from Nguni. the migratting groups ventured around some remained around Limpopo, some went Zim, Namibia, ZAmbia, Malawi, Tanzania to the west, Congo. hence there you have earlier versions of Shangaans who were around Limpopo around 1830's or earlier, and that is how the heritage has been lost. Not forgeting the Sister tribe the Tsonga they played a very significant role of bearing offsprings and language of which we are today. MY THAT there are more SHANGAANS lies in the surnames not LANGUAGE.BUT WE ARE ONE. GUYS. THANKS FOR YOUR EARS.!!

Mbezula said...

the only COMMON and SAME things between the Ndwandwes and the Zulu were LANGUAGE and CULTURE. Actually there were/are thing just split into different clans fo better management.

Risimati said...

Firstly, i must indicate that i wouldn't want as i will never adress Va/Mutsonga(myself) as a sha/changaan as i believe the perception and imaginations around this name is nully & void as it is also pejorative in its implication. True as it is that my ( Tsonga people's) geneological offsprings is explicitly detached from any existing tribes or ethnicity in South Africa, as the undoubted and most celebrated scholars delineate the early history of Vatsonga hailing as far afield to the Central African countries transcending late to the Southern-Eastern part of our now SADEC region.

Again, the instilled perception around this thing of adressing Vatsonga as machangani is a figment of imagination existed since after the emergence of your Soshangaan in my people, and i believe is a hallucination that could vanish only if we, the Tsonga people, are willing to cease adressing each other as machangani and, tell truely about our being.

Shangaani is a very derogative word as everybody(especially these precocious media people) is now aware of, and i believe when the then Vatsonga people coined themselves as such never wish to insult their generations.....

Palakashi said...

Hi to you all.
I am a Nghonyama. Can anyone tell the origins of this clan?

ruralbwoy said...

Nghonyama of who?

If you know your surname breakdown it will help, be more explicit.

Jacky said...

Guys,guys, guys!!!! Plaese no wonder even today we seem to be lost in the New South Africa.Why are so defferent to other groups.Look at cultural groups such zulus,sothos, xhosas, pedis, vendas and etc even the boewers are better than us. We can blame each other here. Firstly let reseach we did we found ourselves in SA. We know that no one except the Khoisan belong to SA. But one thing i want to mension is KUHAVA MUNHU LOYI VANGE I MUCHANGANA LA HA MISAVENI. NDZI HLAYELO SWILO SWO TALA. Loko ko languta endzhaku mita swivona swa kuri hini vuxaka na vhanhu vale maputo. Hinkwalaho ni ku muchangana anga hanyi laha misaveni. Hina hi vatsonga ku hava xinwana xo tlula xexo. HINA HI VATSONGA NAKONA A HINA YONA HOSI YA VATSONGA. NAKONA YINGE TSHUKI YI VEKONA. Maputukezi ya tlange hihina. They have used us to gain lands an everything in south africa. Hosi ya vatsonga yisale emaputo. Minga vula swivongo swa nwina hinkwaswo kambe a swi nge pfuni chumu sweswo. tihosi leti nga kona te vekiwe hi maputukeziloko vafika na hina la Afrika Dzonga. We were slaves of the Purtugese. Hina heve na Ndunakulu Tatana Ntsanwisi(Maluleke). His family are from maputo and all Vatsonga are Mozambique finish and klaar. You can do reseach and you will it the way it is. Nxumalo wa swi vona kuri loko claimer vuhosi a tiva kuri uta humelela kambe a swinge endli. Nxumalo uta loko Ntsanwisi anga hari kona. Why now, so why did he wait for 100 decades to such a thing. You guys you talk the swiss in elim and let me remind you that even Giyani does not even belong to us u forget. That are for vendas which were defeated by purtugese and called it giyani to dom us. Infact we dont have anything like history we belong to Maputo.

MKB said...

Since we've established a lot of things and agree on most, I think what this discussion should be about i ku aka hi vuntshwa (reconstruction). What can we do to rebuild the nation? For me it would work best if larger kingdoms were regrouped. Ngunis + Khoisan in a country of their own - say South Africa, Tsongas (Tswa, Ronga, Shangaan, Ndzawu, Chopi, etc) + Makhuwa as well - say Mozambique, Sotho (Tswana, Pedi, Sotho, etc) - say Botswana, Shona + Venda and related - say Zimbabwe, et cetera. For peoples like the Ndebeles an option between Zim & SA would be presented. Countries might need to be re-demarcated in the process. The problem with this arrangement we have right now is more people are sidelined and their cultures and languages are disrespected. One nation, one language would serve a better purpose! If a people chooses to stay in a particular country, they must accept to be swallowed/integrated. In some cases two or three languages might need to share one country but that's better than 10! This is a long shot and it would be a costly process but it would be fairer. In the long run, costs would be saved coz people would need to only speak once and be heard all across. Maybe our governments should start looking into such a thing. It's just an idea that I think could work if our governments put time and effort in it early on to implement gradually after a century or later.

MKB said...
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MKB said...

Just look at it, initiatives like SABC 4 & 5 don't even cater for previously disadvantaged languages! How long have Zulu & Xhosa been on TV? Aren't they the most dominant on SABC 1? How long have Sotho, Tswana and Pedi been on SABC 2? But they are also putting them on SABC's 4 & 5. And you think they won't dominate these new channels? I was of the impression that one new TV channel would be for Tsonga and the other for Venda?

Daz said...

May someone help with the link between Langa of Zwide clan, Mthethwa clan and Nguni. The link between Xhosa, Luzumane, Ndebele and Swazi to Nguni is crystal clear. Another unclear link is that of tonga in Africa, Dzonga in the north of KZN and Tsongas in Mozambique how do they link to Nguni or do they have the same origin with differ dialects with different origin with Nguni?

Daz said...

May someone clarify the link between Zwide clan, Mthetwa clan and Nguni. Also the link between Tonga in Mozambique and the whole of central africa, Tsongas in Mozambique and northern KZN and the Dzongas in North KZN to Nguni. There is no mention of the link between Langa of the Zwide clan to Nguni.

Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...

you guys need to do a proper history, and real research. if you don't know where your roots are the are guidelines on each and every african clan/tribe.

example if you are a Ngobeni you know that your ancerstors" A ma Ndlozi" they manifest in IsiZULU/Nguni/Ngoni. if you are another clan some Amandlozi manifest in Ndzawu. that is your actual line or roots.

do more research you will see that Amashangane not changana "changana" is a portugese name. are originating from KZN even though there were migrations but their bloodline still follows them wherever they are even if you are in Giyani far from Mpumalanga they will manifest in Isizulu you will just hear Vumani Bo you reply siya vuma you will never hear them saying pfumelani ka

ruralbwoy said...

To use the ancestors as a reference for your roots is incorrect.
If you are possessed by the so called “A ma Ndlozi” swikwembu if those spirits speak Ndau or Zulu it has nothing to do with your line roots.

Why don’t we get possessed by our own people who speak xiTsonga, Ronga, Tswa or Copi but by those of other clans?

The Ndau spirits mostly possess you just to pay revenge for what happened during the era of Sochangana’s rule. Most of them were badly treated and enslaved by Sochangana and his followers.

The Nguni’s believed that they were superior to other tribes that’s why even when they are dead their spirits still believe they are superior they can take over your living soul by hijacking it.

Be observant and ask around, you’ll find that most of the Tsonga people get possessed by restless spirits of the MEN who died during the tribal wars in the 18hundreds century and the women spirits are less.

Originaly, we the Tsonga's never had a spiritual link with the Ndau or Ngunis(Zulu). This happened durring Sochangana's rule.

And Themba, why are you saying changana "changana" is a portugese name?

Daz, Tsonga, Dzonga (Thonga) Ronga and other tribes that we share the same dialect are said to be originated from a tribe called Beja-Tonga (from Congo basin)

Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...
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Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...

Delete Comment From: TSONGA HISTORY DISCOURSE

Blogger Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...

ruralbwoy,

I disagree with your views, first to make it clear to you the portuguese people they don't have Sh in their vocab/pronaunciation when they refer to Shaka Zulu they say Chaka when they refer to soshangana they say sochangana. im sure in tsonga you learnt Swi hluvi swa mbulavulo na mintlawa ya kona e.g. Xi -Swi, Ri-Ma etc


Amandlozi usually follows your blood line(they guide and direct their descendants) if you know what you im talking about you will differentiate between Amandlozi and amaDimona. amandlozi usually shows you how to treat otherpeople diseases etc while asmadimona they hijack your life make you not to prosper or kill you sometimes just like you said.
these are two different things usually amandlozi will be found more into the Inyanga/n'anga, va nyamsoro just to guide and heal while the others they make you to do evil etc

Remember that Ngobeni a sister tribe of Ngobese its still there in KZN near louwsville around pongola. try google it you will find it was named after King Shaka it stands until the present day. check abaqulisi municipality.

OK to cut the story shot re-visit the history of amondlhozi you will find it follows a bloodline, if you are a christian like me they will teach you the same thing.

back to the discussion, We the Amashangana of south africa we are you will find us in Mpumalanga we are the descendents of Ndwandwe Isithakazelo from my uncle's site Nxumalo it mentions from Ndwandwe,Zwide kaLanga,etc

MKB said...
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MKB said...
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MKB said...
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khalanga1 said...

Thanks khalanga and your team for the info,i think people write what they want our history to be which is not true no can claim the the batsonga kingdom.for instance the Baloyi/Mathebula clan are a big group in the batsonga people today but we our of khalanga origins in mono mutapa,shoshangane never conquered us actually he use to bow before our ancesters because we are kings and queens in our own right.people must stop generalizing this issue unless they come with facts,people must remain chiefs where they are staying and stop claiming to be kings of the batsonga people.even shaka zulu bowed before the rain queen Mdjadji which is our closest in south South africa in terms of ancestry.

Mlambya RPX said...

Please assist me with the Author/s contact details. We're pushing a documentary and would like to have their opinion on this subject.

ruralbwoy said...

Godfrey Maluleke at 083 294 0547

MKB said...

A, mi hi luma ndleve loko documentary leyi yi humile!

MKB said...

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7161305/MA-History-of-the-MabhuduTembe-RJ-Kloppers

MKB said...

http://www.facebook.com/pages/First-Online-Tsonga-Dictionary/131184953572643

Manganyi said...

How can a Nxumalo be a king of all Tsonga speaking people, Nxumalo is not even Tsonga its Zulu

MKB said...
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MKB said...

@Manganyi: unfortunately there's no like button on Blogspot, I'd have liked your comment a thousand times!

@Themba Ngoveni, you're most uninformed. Mandlhozi na swikwembu a swi fani. Swikwembu i ti-ancestor, mandlhozi i madimoni/demons - that's why they need to be exorcised. This according to Thomas F Johnston in Music of the Shangana-Tsonga.. Exorcism kumbe mancomani ya chayeriwa ku humesa mimoya yo biha. Why would you not want your own ancestors' spirits to possess you? Does that make sense to you?

A lot of the literature that I'm reading refers to Nghunghunyane as "chief". A case in point is the aforementioned research report.

Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...

@MKB did you read i quote "Amandlozi usually follows your blood line(they guide and direct their descendants)"

your statements shows that you didnt read that statement, if you read it you will see Swikwembu/madimona while I talked about Amandlozi above.

try to read analyse and understand before making a comment it will help you next time. cheers.

Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...

@MKB I like the first Tsonga-Online dictionary you posted.

First before you comment on the Clan Ngobeni you must know the history very well and researched it thoroughly. I work with people who do language profiency in the parliament most doing Ririmi ra Xitsonga, historically the is no Ngobeni/Ngoveni in Tsonga. Ngobeni,Ngobese,Ngobeza,Ngubane,ngubeni,Ngobe its a nguni/ngoni clan that was integrated into Valambya in the olden days the is no line in Tsonga that line-up Ngobeni except Nguni/Ngoni.

I can see you love to give examples, did you also listen to the song by Penny-Penny Bangoni I vana va mani, it says ingane ya Mashangane he starts calling Ngobeni,Maluleke etc. historically does that not tell you which Ancestors will follow your bloodline? if you understand you will see it wont be Tsonga amandlozi it will be Nguni/Ngoni Amandlozi.

I see you talked about literature on Ngungunyane, thats good but most of the genealogy around Ngungunyane/Mdungaze the way we know him was suppose to be from Mzila,Manukuze II A.K.A Soshangane from Zigode ka GazaII ka MaKweya Wa Manukuze I ka Langa obuya kwa Mkhatswa ka Ndwandwe wa Nxumalo Ka Ndabezitha wa Mngoni.

try to follow that line you will see where Mdungaze falls following the family tree

MKB said...

I wonder if you read mine. Mandlhozi i madimoni. Get it?

Themba Tjnas Ngobeni said...

@MKB I think we are talking on a different view here. Amadlozi its not Tsonga its IsiZulu/nguni in Zulu Amadlozi are defined/described as: Amadlozi ngabantu asebashona. Idlozi elidala lalihlonishwa kakhulu, kucelwa kuqondiswe ikakhulu kulo. Ayehlatshelwa amadlozi:lapho ebongwa,lapho kushwelezwa, kucelwa Izinhlanhla etc I can explain as much as i can, because i was raised on both Nguni/Tsonga/shangaan way. if you look at it from this level you can see Amadlozi Zulu its like Swikwembu in Our Tsonga/shangaan vale hansi lava nga fa khale va hloniphiwa va kombeliwa ku nika nhlanhla kumbe ku holisa ka lava hanyaka.

we can still discuss some more it sounds interesting because we are all coming from different view points, I wish other people can join and discuss some more

MKB said...
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MKB said...

You just said a bunch of things I do not understand, but then again that might have been your intention. Ndzi ri Swikwembu na va le hansi a swi fani na Mandlhozi. Kasi ndzi ta vula kangani naa? Hi Xizulu kumbexana. Ndzi ku nyike link ha yini u nga hlayanga? Mandlhozi i rito ra Xitsonga loko u nga swi tivi. Marito a ya tirhisiwi ku fana eka tindzimi. Laha hi vulavula hi Xitsonga se hi tirhisa nhlamuselo ya Xitsonga. U nga ndzi byeli hi vanhu va le parliament va na swikongomelo swa vona.

kurhula.com said...
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MKB said...

Ndzi ta ku nyika xikombiso, i Xitswana mona hi mavondzo kasi hi Xitsonga swi vula swin'wana.

newgeneration said...

Since you are all struggling to find your past, I suggest you pave your future. What is stopping you from starting your own generation?

hlubiprincess said...

As far as I understand, Shaka never fought with amaHlubi. They kept very good relations with each other, and Shaka even had a regiment of Hlubi warriors in his army. Shaka was given protection with amaHlubi when he was still young, and learned a lot from the king of amaHlubi. The Hlubi were never engaged in battle with amaHlubi, so how could he have defeated them?

tiyani said...

I would like to say that we as tsonga people feel marginalised and like a minority not because we are so in number but because we are a discriminated and most disliked culture in south africa.A hi pfukeni maxaka ya ka hina,magaza

Vera said...

N'wa Mkhantshwa,

Mina ni confused, i mean i would like to understand more of the history of the Shangaans.

The day i have realised that i need to know my origins as a Nxumalo, it is when i was a University. I have met with lots of Zulu people and they started speaking to me in Zulu, and i said i am a Nxumalo who speaks Shangaan, and they were so interested, they asked why? the've asked if there are Shangaans with Zulu Surnames, and i said yes. After that, i have spoke to my dad and questioned him. Also, i met with VaTsonga people from Tzaneen and Giyani, they always told me that my Tsonga is broken, meaning i speak Xitsonga and some Zulu and Xhosa.

All i want to say is that it is good to know where we come from, and be proud of who we are. And promote our culture and langauge, and educate the ignorant South Africans.

Is there a published book about the history of the VaTsonga/Machangana people

MKB said...

Yeah there is. 800 Years of Tsonga History, from which this article was based. There's also Matimu ya Vatsonga by Henri Philippe Junod. You might also was to see Life of a South African tribe, by his father, Henri Alexander Junod.

Sono Shangaan said...

Xikongomele lexikulu akuve ku Gaza Kingdom iva iti imele iri yoche, ya e Kazete

KingVoice Monday said...

There we go our differences from Machana imuchongolo, xibelani na pronunciations

BIENAAR HLULANI MKHAVELA said...

Ofcoz ngunis were the main rulers of Gaza,mpofu and part of Sofala kingdoms,bt ngunis never destroyed the beliefs,norms and cultures of other endeginouses hence they had their own Ndunas and activities bt Under the one Emperor Muninkosi.Ngunis were the reason of growin the Empire and multy cultural smallcans 2 unite as one but still kip their ways of culture bcoz of their military attackin&offensive skills they migrated with Eastward and thefore Empirer was stronger in manyways...there had been some many attempts that Shaka wanted 2 invade soshangan Empirer but with no success...dats why Gaza kingdom is one of those who resisted long even during European colonial..changana/tsonga o wateva we were one then,we are one now,and will be one foerver Siblings 4 life!!!!!

BIENAAR HLULANI MKHAVELA said...

don't be fooled that if we differ from some of cultural activities then we are not one.That happens in every race in the world like Xhosa can be divided into amaBovhana,amaBaqa,amaMpondo etc bt are all xhosas as in Tswana their r Barolong,Bakwena,Bahurutshe,Batlharo their way differs a bit but they are all Batswana...Jst lyk Churches we have different churches names and paths in worshipin bt still one God...Tsonga derives from the name Dzonga/maTsonga/maDzomga-people of da south...Their are no real Tsongas exist even those who wrongfuly dscrib demselves as Tsongas they r diversed like SAMBO,RIKhotso,Risimati ect those r chopi/copi mixed with Ndau names so thefore Tsonga Simply means dzonga...i hve neva seen idlozi speak so called Tsonga so it duznt exist by culture only by descriptions.maDlozi either uses Ndau/shona,copi,or nguni languages not pure Tsonga nor pure shangaan.I'm Mkha(b)vel(e)a u can eitha call me xangaan o tsonga it duznt metta coz Tsonga is used stricly 2 describe southxangaans...I've bin 2 mozambik numerus tyms people of Maputsu province and Gaza province don't call demselves Tsongas its ida Ronga/or xangaans with unique acsent bt same people...People are one since the rein of ngunis that united all of us 2 form a 1EMpire with diversity...I'm not Zulu coz I'm not a subodinant of Shaka Zulu,bt of muninkosi soxangaan Nxumalo hence I'm nguni xangaan muchanganamungoni.....phambili Gaza phambili!!!we are same people now aand ever!!!!

Mphephu Ngobeni said...

"Swiminta tintsengele switshembe nkolo"

Mphephu Ngobeni said...

"Swiminta tintsengele swi tshembe nkolo"- my thought for the day

Mphephu Ngobeni said...

"Swiminta tintsengele switshembe nkolo"

thula said...

Himina nwana Albert wa Willy wa Makasela wa Matshavatshi wa Mamitela wa Gulukhulu wa Changamire Ni Munyai,Murhodzi Mukhalanga hina ahi hlangani helo na Nghunghunyani.Hina a hina swihluke swa yena

Jack Labase said...

Can someone tell me the origin of Zitha people? Which tribe do they belong to? Where did they first settle? Zitha's history is confusing because the elders has passed on without leaving the relevant information, we are a very diverse family with some saying they originate from Mozambique, Swaziland, Mahlabathini, Nongoma, Msinga, Bergville in KZN, to date we are having the following surnames under Zitha: Labase, Ndawonde, Nkwinika, Mngwengwe, Mhlambo, Nkanyane, Zava, Nyanisa, Kotelo, Thobela, Jwara, Mbongwa, Mlotshwa kaZitha. We all have our own history which doesn't correspond with each other? What we need to find out is Zitha's origin; some are saying ngamaLala while others are saying they are Tsonga's. Should you have information regarding Zitha, please contact me on: 084 313 9024; jacklabase10@gmail.com

Walktall Mabunda said...
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Walktall Mabunda said...
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Walktall Mabunda said...

xangaans are somehow descendants of zulu. they were a prominent tribe during shaka zulu's time. when shaka was fighting and engulfing neigbouring tribes, he encountered the shangaans. when the then shangaan chief, soshangana, saw defeat, he took his troops and fled back to his grandparents tribe somewhere in mozambique. seeing that they had fled, king shake feared that they may come back to claim his kingdom, so he sent soldiers to go after the shangaan chief. this time shakas troops were defeated. these troops were scared to go back and report to shaka because shaka was ruthless, so they never whent back to the zulu king.

while spending time in mozambique the shangaan chief recruited soldiers from his grandparents and started using shaka methods to engulf and rule other kingdoms. when he left mozambique he took some Mozambican troops and people with him. this lead to a new language forming, soshangana the then chief named it shangaan and new kingdom was formed.

he decided to move back into south africa, conquering many other tribes. his campaign was put to a halt when he encountered a venda king who proved to be strong. soshangana remained ruler of most of the land from mozambique, through limpopo and into mpumalanga. the shangaan king probably ruled over acres of land equivalent to that of shaka. the difference between shakas ruling style and soshangana was that soshangana allowed submission and wouldnt slain a chief a chief as long as they agreed to be under him, where shaka killed the chief of every tribe he conquered and enforecd zulu rule.

looking at eric nxumalos family true, he is a direct descendant of soshangana, the king that fomred the nation. he is the rightful king. thats why he is claiming this kingdom.. whoever contests this, heres one simple question, why are shangaans known as shangaans and not their own grandfathers name? every king has a praise poem and its customary that for a king to be called u'bayete, which means exalted king and is the highest for of respect given to a king. in king eric's. it is only in king erics praise peom were you will find bayete, no other king making claim to the throne is called bayete besides eric. he is clearly the rightful king and should be inaugurated, this way it will be simpler for xangaans to trace back their roots. the sooner they inaugurate him the closer we'll get to knowing exact facts about xangaan history from the horses mouth, the one who will be trusted and believed to be the rightful heir to the throne.

ruralbwoy said...

He Walktall Mabunda, i see someone has been feeding you whole loads of crap facts. Can you kindly share with us the source of this crap history edition.

Leon Maluleke said...

The Italians/Romans decided to do away with kingdoms governance systems more than 2000 years ago, and turned the then Roman Empire into a Republic. As a result of that, they progressed as a nation in a very big way and became the greatest nation in the whole world. I find these whole issue of tribalism as very primitive and stupid indeed. We have to do away with this primitive practices of kings/chief and indunas whatever you call them and replace this nonsense with modern governance systems. I am MoTsong who happen to live in Lynnwood Glen in Pretoria, and own my own piece of land and I am not a subject of some luni with bad breath and no one luni is going to claim me.I am sure all of you will agree with me when I say put I it to you that, we did exist way before Shaka? Why are we defined interms of this Shaka and his bunch of war crazy morons like Soshangane? Wakeup and smell the coffee, and forget about this tribalism. We the Tsongas don't have a so called King Tsonga, we are free people and do not belong to anyone. This Nxumalo guy is crazy we are no one 's subjects and we not looking for some luni to come and claim to be our King. We are a free people. Viva VaTsonga Viva.

Philani Michael Chauke said...

hina hivatsonga. kuhava ririmi lerivange ixichangana, unga fa, kuna xitsonga kahle kahle ririmi ramunhu loyi anvamucbangana ixizulu kumbe xinguni. nile kazn sweswi la dbn hintirho and .ivutise kotal himatimu yaka zulu. senikume kunavona lava hansi kamazulu avaswitwi kahle, kahle kahle clan na clan yitiyimela yoxe like. leswiswivulaku kuna vachauke vamthethwa van'wanati etc etc. phela zulu kova n'wana malandela loyi arihosi yavanguni angtswariwa na qwabe gumede, so ahitlheleleni kaswivongo swahina. like mina nimuhlengwe.kahlehle and vakachauke itihosi ahlengweni axikarhi katiko rale mazombique. so for me swolava kutshikiwa hingesepandzeka tihloko. futhi nje hona vala giya.i nale kavomalamulele hilandele ngopfu xivenda hiku vakokwa wabina vafikele kona loko vasuka akagaza. loko switaka swikwembu kumbe madlozi. swanihlamarisa hiku a vatata wahina navahahani avarinaswikwembu swavanguni van'wana swavandawu. mina nikulele kahahanioyi arinaswavangoni swikwembu. ahiyimbelela tisimu tofana naleri: siyaya syoygwaza kanjani kumbe : loyadabuka luvalo na malandela. .... nivutisa kasi ndlozi rinvena loko switeyini.

Philani Michael Chauke said...

nitsala hi touch manje yini endlisa ti mistake. sorry

ruralbwoy said...

He Philani... yes is true, most of the Tsonga people don't get possessed by the restless souls of Tsonga speaking spirits but by mostly the Ngoni/Zulu, Ndau etc.

The reason for this is that eg. the Ndau spirits are paying revenge for the diabolic merciless treatment that they got during Soshangan's raids in the present day Mozambique. The Tsonga people were used by Soshangana as soldiers to carry some of the diabolic murders to the Ndau people. So when you get possed by a Ndau spirits they are paying revenge.

The Ngoni/Zulu spirits that posses most Tsonga people are mostly those Zulus who were with Soshangana when he raided Mozambique. They possess the Tsonga people 'cos they believe that they are superior, even when they are dead and most of these restless Zulu spirits are what is called lost souls.

Deron Chauke said...

deron chauke i dont think we have to debate much on who will lead tsona/shangaane tribe because every comminty they use to have their own chief eg hlengweni,chauke Phafuri,maluleke